WEBVTT

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This is a Toys R Us store in Redwood City, California, but from what you see hanging on the racks here, you think it ought to be called Software R Us.

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Most of the titles being sold here are for the Commodore 64, one of the original home computers, but there's a lot of life left in that old machine.

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New software titles still coming out for what is still a very large installed user base.

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Today, we take a look at an oldie but goodie, the Commodore 64, on this edition of the Computer Chronicles.

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Music

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The Computer Chronicles is made possible in part by McGraw-Hill, publishers of Byte Magazine, and Bix, the Byte Information Exchange.

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In print and online, Byte and Bix serve computer professionals worldwide with detailed information on new hardware, software, and technologies.

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Music

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Welcome to the Computer Chronicles. I'm Stuart Chaffee. This is Gary Kildall. And Gary, I'm playing this new game from Spectrum Holobyte called Tetris.

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The interesting thing about it, it's the first game software sold in the United States written by Russian programmers.

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But what's really interesting is here's a hot new piece of software. What machine does it come out for first? The good old Commodore 64.

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This is the model T of personal computers, yet people are still buying them. People are writing new software for it. How come?

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Well, Stuart, as you know, Jack Tramiel had a Commodore before he moved over to Atari. And Jack's philosophy is to minimize the end user price and just flood the market with the product.

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He did it with a $10 calculator in the mid-70s. Remember that one? He did it also with a Commodore 64, less than $200. The competition was five times that price.

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It's just a good basic computer for a very affordable price. The result is there's about, what, 7 million of these things in the United States alone.

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It provides a real good hardware bed for software writers because they can take the software development costs and amortize it across millions of units.

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The result is you get a lot of good software at a very affordable price.

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Gary, today we're going to focus on the good old Commodore 64. We'll meet lots of C64 users and see the interesting applications they've developed for the computer.

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Now, one of the reasons the Commodore 64 is still around is it got a new operating system a couple of years ago, something called GIS.

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We begin today by visiting the man who wrote GIS, Brian Dougherty, at Berkeley Softworks.

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The history of personal computers is marked by some spectacular successes and failures.

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But the award for popularity must go to the Commodore 64, a little 8-bit machine that refuses to die.

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The 64's commercial success and its enormous user base have inspired some software developers to take a second look at the 64's potential.

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One of those companies is Berkeley Softworks, next to the university campus in Berkeley, California.

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What we did is we looked at these markets, at the Commodore 64 market first and the Apple II.

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And basically, it takes a while for people to really push a machine to its total limits.

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And one of the things that we really believe in here that the rest of the software world, I think, has only really started to catch on to, is using very sophisticated development tools.

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And the net of all that is we're capable now of developing applications for these machines that I don't think people really thought these machines were capable of performing.

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Berkeley's most important product is the Geos operating system, a graphic interface for the 64 and 128 that features pull-down menus, icons, and windows.

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The new operating system opens the door to some very sophisticated applications, like a spreadsheet called GeoCalc.

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And GeoFile, a database with user-designed forms.

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There's even a desktop publishing package, something usually requiring big memories and big budgets.

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But at Berkeley Softworks, it's all in the code.

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Mainly, it's by coding much more efficiently.

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The theorem of computer science is any computer program can be implemented by a one-bit Turing machine.

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That's actually a theory that's been proven in computer science.

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So even this 8-bit processor is capable of doing all the things that a much more expensive computer, like, say, a Macintosh or an IBM PC, is capable of doing.

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Now, it may not be able to do it as fast, although we try to make up for the limitations and the capability of the machine by programming more efficiently.

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But you can actually do anything with a computer.

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Joining us in the studio now is Lucy Morton.

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Lucy is a member of the Diablo Valley Commodore 64 users group.

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And next to Lucy is Mike Dunsmore, a member of the Commodore Owners of the Peninsula.

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Gary.

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Mike, the Commodore users groups, they're principally C64 users, or what's the composition?

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There are some user groups that are just Commodore 64s.

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And there might be some that have an Amiga N64.

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Now, you communicate through bulletin boards over modems, is that correct?

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Yeah, there's about two or three bulletin boards, or BBSs.

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Are those bulletin boards run by C64s sometimes, or no?

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Generally, on another machine, but they might have a Commodore 64 database and downloads.

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Lucy, it may be a little presumptuous of me, but you don't appear to be the average game player.

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He's using a Commodore 64.

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Why did you buy a C64?

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Well, we have always been interested in computers, and my husband also does some programming.

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And the program is very easy on this machine, because you can edit it very easily, and we make mistakes very often.

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So you're primarily programming in BASIC, then?

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That's right, in BASIC.

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Now, you have a program that you wrote that helps you make sweaters, is that correct?

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Well, it helps me to chart them.

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Making is something else.

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Okay.

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Can you tell us a little bit about it?

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Yes.

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This is an interactive program, and as you run through the program, it asks you what style you would like.

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And you have to have one thing before you start, which is the number of stitches per inch and the number of rows per inch,

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which you get from a swatch like this.

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All right.

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We've already decided that we're going to make a jacket, and that we're going to have a knit-on band that is knit right in one with a sweater.

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And so we're going to have it in ribbing.

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And now we have to decide if we want a V-neck.

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I think we'll select the V-neck today.

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And we're going to put the neck band right in one with the front band.

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So the program leads you through this sort of thing.

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It leads you through the whole thing, then what kind of sleeve do you want.

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Well, let's take no sleeve for this.

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Well, let's have a raglan sleeve.

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Then it asks do you want long or short, and it will go on with this sort of thing.

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Do you want a fitted sleeve or straight sleeve?

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And it goes on through all the questions.

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Then it will program.

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Yeah, what do you end up with?

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Show us.

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Yes, it will do this on the screen also, but it will end up with something like this, which I guess is what you'd like to see.

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Yeah.

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This prints out all the directions for a sweater very similar to the one that I have on.

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And the one you're wearing you designed using your own program.

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Yes, that's right.

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That's great.

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I'm going to turn to Mike now.

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If you could slide the computer over to Mike.

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And Mike, you've been using the C64 to do some kind of artwork.

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Tell me what you do.

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Yeah, I've made a few pictures, screens.

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For what particular purpose?

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Well, just to make a picture.

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Or sometimes I would put them in a – it would be a title screen for a program I was working on or for a menu.

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And you use the C64 plus what else?

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KoalaPad.

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And what kind of software?

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There's a KoalaPad – a KoalaPainter.

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Okay, can you show us some of the things you do with KoalaPad?

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Sure, let me load this KoalaPainter in.

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Okay, I have the menu here.

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What you would do is you could catalog the disk from that icon.

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You could save, get, or name and save.

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So we can just click on the get.

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Okay, suppose we want to look at WACOs there.

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So we click on get and go up to WACO, press the button.

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I already have it loaded.

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Okay.

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This is the picture.

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Okay, that's pretty good.

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And that is what?

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What did you create this for?

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This was for a bulletin board that I knew the guy that was running it and he wanted to –

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The WACO World Board.

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Yeah, the WACO World, yeah.

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Okay, can you pull up something else you're in the middle of working on?

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Sure, I can just go to swap here, hit that.

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This is for a program, a menu program.

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All you would see is this screen here, and I could press A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

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Suppose you wanted to add some artwork to that screen.

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How would you do that?

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Okay, there's a part down at the bottom I'm still working on.

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Go to zoom here, put the window down here, and touch up these letters, select a color.

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So I want to get rid of that green line.

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I just do it pixel by pixel.

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I could drag the pointer across.

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And then you could just paint a graphic in that little space on the right if you wanted to?

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Yeah.

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This really, it takes – it's time consuming.

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Well, one of the interesting things is that this is a video, composite video, same as your little camcorders and so forth.

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So you could actually make titles and all sorts of things for your home videos.

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An interesting thing, I guess, Mike, I mean you have your sort of graphics design station here for an investment of probably well under $400

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compared to some of the expensive systems we've seen.

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Well worth that.

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Okay, Lucy and Mike, thank you very much.

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As we've seen, users groups have been a very important element of the success of the Commodore 64.

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We asked Wendy Woods to go visit a users group meeting in Foster City, California, and here's her report.

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If you buy for price, you don't always get good service.

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And that's especially true for Commodore 64 and 128 owners whose low-cost machines get no support from the mass merchandisers who sell them.

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Enter the Commodore users group, like this one in Foster City, California, where people like Ralph Hornbrook try out programs,

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trade tips, and just plain get the help that they need.

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It's almost impossible to describe the help.

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Me being an absolute neophyte three or four years ago, we knew nothing.

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Where do you go? What do you do? How do you work these things?

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We knew we wanted to get into it, but we didn't know how to get into it.

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What we do is we offer an informal hand-holding type meeting where if somebody doesn't understand how to use a computer,

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we'll sit down with them, show them how to operate it, show them how to do the various processes that are required to run programs,

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and show them how to put everything together.

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It's just how to use their computer and use it to productive advantage.

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Despite the fact that the more powerful Amiga is now seen at the Commodore users group meetings, interest in the C64 is still going strong.

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The price keeps dropping and people keep buying them, which is why it should come as no surprise that membership in groups like this has actually increased over the years.

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In Foster City, California, for the Computer Chronicles, I'm Wendy Woods.

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With us in the studio now is Malcolm Lowe with the Commodore West users group, and next to Malcolm is Kelly Flock with Electronic Arts.

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Kelly, Electronic Arts is obviously a well-known software producer and game software producer.

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How important is the Commodore 64 relative to your old marketing plan, like the Apple, relative to Apple IDNPC and so forth?

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The Commodore is very important. I would say that it's our second most important format behind the IBM compatible format.

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What is it about the Commodore that makes it a good target for a game?

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It's probably the leading home computer with its installed base of like 7 million units, and it's very game intensive.

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As you know, we make a lot of entertainment software. That's a natural place for us to be.

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Malcolm, you've got a program in the tracked mode here in the background running called the Wine Steward.

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Can you tell us a little bit about that program?

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Yeah, sure. The Wine Steward is a program that's designed to help people who are unfamiliar with purchasing wines

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to be able to make a choice based on the food that they're going to have for dinner.

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Okay, and this is written for the 64, and it's used in supermarkets, I understand.

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That's correct, yes.

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Show us how you'd use it.

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Yeah, sure. The basic screen is a menu of choices.

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You move down the menu using a white button that's on a cabinet, and using the green button, you select a further menu.

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Move down to the choice and select again, and you will be given a choice of a total of nine wines.

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Okay, so it's making its decision as to what wines to recommend.

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That's correct.

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And there are three on the first screen, which are budget price wines.

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The second screen offers you another three at popular price, and the third at premium price wines.

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How do people like this?

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They seem to take to it very well indeed.

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Any particular reason why you wrote it for the Commodore 64?

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Pretty well, an easy computer to program for.

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It has lots of features, particularly color, and you can program different fonts for it.

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Okay, Kelly, let's turn to you.

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Electronic Arts has a new game for the 64 called Skate or Dine.

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I want you to tell me about that.

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This is a multi-event game where it's kind of like a skateboard simulation where you get to do all the things that you wouldn't normally do unless you…

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You don't want to risk your knees and your elbow.

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Right, all the fun and none of the scars, as we say.

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Okay, Kelly, show me how you play Skate or Dine.

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Okay, this is the half pipe, which is a regular skateboarding event, and you do it through a combination of a kick turn, a joystick moves, and button controls.

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No need to look at the documentation.

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Oh, you do that on purpose?

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I wish.

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I'm going to try and get up in the air on this one.

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All right.

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Beautiful.

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Almost.

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So it's a combination of joystick and the buttons.

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Correct.

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Oh, nice move.

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However…

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So there are like 12 different moves you can do in here, and you get points for the variety of your routine, and you get bonus points at the end.

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So I got 8,000 points, which is a pretty good score.

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You can get up to 15,000 points in here.

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That's great.

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Kelly, is Skate or Dine available on any machine other than the Commodore 64?

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No, right now it's available only on the Commodore.

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It was designed on the Commodore and takes advantage of some unique features, such as the sprites and the 16 colors and the three voices.

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We're in the process of developing it for the machine.

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Now, Kelly, are there more things you can do besides just skating on this ramp?

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There's a total of five events.

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The ramp is the only event modeled on real skateboarding, but there's a couple of downhill events where you can break bottles and skate through bushes and through a drain pipe.

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And there's a pull-joust event where you have three computer opponents and you get to wop them with the little marine bobbins.

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It's a pretty fun little game.

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And what about the price?

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It's just at retail on it.

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It's $29.95.

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Okay.

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And is there something about the Commodore market that you just don't get more than $30 for a game?

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As the Commodore market gets older, it becomes more price sensitive.

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There's a lot more product developed for it as opposed to, say, a market like the Amiga where there are very few games right now.

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So it's going to be something you're deemphasizing after a while?

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No.

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We make it up in volume.

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Okay.

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How do we do it?

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Volume.

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Kelly, Malcolm, thank you very much.

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Gary, earlier this week I got a chance to talk to the new president of Commodore, Max Toy, and I started out by asking him if Commodore looks at the 64 as really a game machine.

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Well, it would be real easy to say that.

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What we have seen in the marketplace is that it's continuing to be used in business.

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We're seeing it used on broader applications than we've ever seen before.

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Commodore 64 is being used for desktop publishing.

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It's being used in the small, tiny business.

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It's having a resurgence back in the education marketplace.

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So it is much more than a toy marketplace.

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Now, I will tell you that we have seen a growth and enhancement in the entertainment marketplace due to some of the software.

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But we're still seeing new business software being written for the product as well.

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Is it a current machine?

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Are people still buying Commodore 64s?

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The incredible thing about the Commodore 64 is it does continue to grow, and the market continues to expand.

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We sell worldwide between a million and a million and a half Commodore 64s every year.

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And what we've seen is a whole new wave of customers coming into the marketplace.

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Commodore 64 has always been strong in the small, tiny business marketplace.

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And we're seeing a lot of young, first-time users coming into the marketplace.

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In fact, I've heard it said that Commodore welcomes more first-time computers users than any other company in the world.

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Brand-new software is coming into the marketplace.

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And you've got to remember, it's not old technology to the first-time user.

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And we're seeing a lot of people using this computer as their first entry into the power of computing.

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And therefore, you're bringing new customers in every year coming to this marketplace.

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So it is new technology as far as they're concerned.

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And we see software people continuing to use the high-performance capabilities for a very high-value dollar.

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Who do you see then right now as the competition for the 64?

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I mean, is it the lower-cost Apple or is it the Atari ST?

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Or are you going up against Nintendo and Sega in a way?

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Well, the answer really is probably C, all of the above.

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You know, at one end of the marketplace, you compete against the Nintendos, the game machines.

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And what we're seeing, our parents are deciding that they would much rather have more than just a game machine for their children to use

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and use the entertainment software and take it a step further with education and real use that the child can use it for.

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But at the same time, we're still being seen used in business.

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We're seeing it used in television production environment as well.

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It's a very, very important part of our business.

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It's continuing to grow.

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We're continuing to spend our research and development dollars on the product and the peripherals and the support capabilities of that product.

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So it's a very, very important part of Commodore's existence today and its future.

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You look at our greatest assets.

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They're an install base.

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They're our manufacturing and design capability to build a machine from silicon up.

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And the fact that we've got such a strong, active user group community,

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the passion that the Commodore users have for the Commodore machines and for what they've been able to do with those machines is absolutely incredible.

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And that's exciting.

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That's fun.

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Joining us in the studio now is Bill Morrow, a Commodore 64 user from Pacifica, California, and behind Bill, Gary, is a table full of synthesizers, all hooked up to a 64.

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Bill, you're a very accomplished musician.

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What is it about the Commodore 64 that makes it a good music computer?

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Number one, it's very inexpensive.

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The other thing is the SID chip, and that's the sound interface device.

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Okay.

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What does the SID chip do?

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Well, it makes sound.

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It has three musicians in it, you could say.

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And these three musicians can play individual notes separate or they can play them simultaneously.

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So we can have a flute and a bass and a violin playing all at the same time.

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Okay, and you can experiment with the different sounds and mix them and so forth.

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Right.

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I can study the attack, delay, and sustain and release.

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Okay.

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Now, you've got some software in here, some composition software called Master Composer, is it?

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Show us how that works using the SID chip, Bill.

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Well, here you can see I've already entered a few notes over here.

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And I have three voices.

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I've got my musician number two here.

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And you see I have some rest up there.

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So I have about, I would say I have 16 positions that I can.

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Okay, if you wanted to go ahead now and listen to that music, you would just put in there.

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This is using only the SID chip, right?

20:29.000 --> 20:30.000
Right.

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No synthesizers.

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No, just the Commodore.

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Okay.

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Okay, you want to listen to it?

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Yeah.

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All right.

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And it's showing the notes that it's playing as it goes along.

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And that's all just coming out of the 64.

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Exactly, as they're playing.

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That's all coming out of the 64, no help.

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And they're the notes you had entered before.

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Right.

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Just a little piece of music you put in there.

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Okay, can we turn that off just a second?

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And I want to ask you now to give us the whole ballgame here and hook up all your synthesizers

20:59.000 --> 21:01.000
and see if the 64 can handle all of that.

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All right.

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What do we do to do that?

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Okay, first of all, I have the MIDI interface hooked up with the Commodore.

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And from the MIDI interface, I go through my MIDI through box, which we can't see.

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And from that, I'm hooked up to one, two, three keyboards, which all are multi-channels.

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And I have about 14 channels or tracks.

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A musician would think of them as tracks, different tracks running.

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Then we have the drum machine and we have a sound generator over there, which gives me about 16 tracks.

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And what's the software that's controlling all this?

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The software is Dr. T's software.

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And it's a very powerful software.

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You can record with this just like you're recording in a studio.

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Like they say, take one and you play.

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Or you can insert the notes from...

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Okay, how about take one?

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Let's hear what it sounds like.

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Let's take one and say, okay.

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Tell us what you're doing.

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I'm doing an original tune that I and James Anderson co-wrote.

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Okay.

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Let's hear it.

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Okay.

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That's pretty darn good.

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Now, let me ask you.

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You're a musician.

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What's the pleasure of working with something like the C64?

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You had told us before you were thinking about getting out of the music business, but now you're back in it.

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Well, the pleasure is I don't have to have a lot of musicians to rehearse with.

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I don't have to tell them, play my music simple.

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I've got a drummer that this crazy machine will just play all day long.

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And most of the time I will wear musicians out.

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I like to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse.

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And these guys, well, I'm tired.

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So as a composer and as a musician, you have more control now.

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I have more control.

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With pretty little investment, as you said.

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Oh, it's a very cheap investment.

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Thanks so much for being here, Bill.

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That's our look at the Commodore 64.

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Hope we'll see you here again next week on the Computer Chronicles.

23:07.000 --> 23:25.000
In the Random Access file this week, there are reports that the new D-BASE IV program has some bugs in the SQL mode.

23:25.000 --> 23:31.000
White Magazine's Microbite service and a company called QuadBase have both reported that responses to SQL query statements

23:31.000 --> 23:38.000
can lead to incorrect reports on the number of records or to an internal error message that prevents the execution of the query.

23:38.000 --> 23:41.000
Ashton Tate says it is investigating the reports.

23:41.000 --> 23:45.000
The Enver virus, which attacked the Macintosh community several months ago,

23:45.000 --> 23:49.000
has been discovered on a Mac CD-ROM disk of public domain software.

23:49.000 --> 23:53.000
The virus infected seven files on the disk, including a HyperCard stack and Stuff-It.

23:53.000 --> 23:57.000
The disk is called the MegaROM and it's produced by Quantum Leap Technology.

23:57.000 --> 24:02.000
The company says it has found and eliminated the virus and that new copies of the disk are clean.

24:02.000 --> 24:05.000
The Enver virus was passed on through a hard disk utility.

24:05.000 --> 24:10.000
It infects applications and eventually causes an unrecoverable systems crash.

24:10.000 --> 24:18.000
The virus reportedly can be detected by the Virus Detective program, but can sneak by Apple's program called VirusRx.

24:18.000 --> 24:21.000
The Russians say they have been hit by their first computer virus.

24:21.000 --> 24:27.000
The virus, known as DOS-62, infected 80 computers at the USSR Academy of Sciences.

24:27.000 --> 24:33.000
The Russians suspect the virus got into the system after some students who attended an international summer computer camp

24:33.000 --> 24:38.000
attempted to copy some infected programs using the academy's computers.

24:38.000 --> 24:44.000
IBM says it has developed a new experimental circuit that could lead to PCs with mainframe speed.

24:44.000 --> 24:48.000
The CMOS circuit is 1 300th the thickness of a human hair.

24:48.000 --> 24:51.000
It can switch on and off 30 billion times a second.

24:51.000 --> 24:57.000
A memory chip using the new circuit could contain up to 256 megabits of information.

24:57.000 --> 25:00.000
Time for this week's software review. Here's Paul Schindler.

25:00.000 --> 25:06.000
In our available minute, we can't settle the age-old question of whether you really need an encyclopedia or not.

25:06.000 --> 25:10.000
But if you decide to do for yourself or your children, which would you rather have?

25:10.000 --> 25:14.000
These 20 volumes or this compact disk?

25:14.000 --> 25:20.000
This is the Electronic Encyclopedia, and it contains all the text from the Academic American Encyclopedia.

25:20.000 --> 25:25.000
That's 9 million words, 30,000 entries, 60 megabytes of data.

25:25.000 --> 25:29.000
You can pay a dollar a minute to access this encyclopedia online via Dow Jones,

25:29.000 --> 25:33.000
or you pay $300 once and have this in your home.

25:33.000 --> 25:37.000
Now, we're not going to show any screens today, because screens full of text aren't very interesting to look at.

25:37.000 --> 25:41.000
But I can tell you that when you give the Electronic Encyclopedia search program a word,

25:41.000 --> 25:46.000
it finds every article in the encyclopedia that includes that word and tells you the headline of the article.

25:46.000 --> 25:49.000
You can read it, print it, or put it in a disk file.

25:49.000 --> 25:53.000
Now, be careful what you do with that disk file, because you don't want to plagiarize this work.

25:53.000 --> 25:58.000
Now, I know in order to use this, you need an $800 CD-ROM player for your PC.

25:58.000 --> 26:02.000
Believe me, this isn't the last CD-ROM program you'll want.

26:02.000 --> 26:06.000
The Electronic Encyclopedia is $300 from Grolier Electronic Publishing in New York.

26:06.000 --> 26:09.000
For the Computer Chronicles, I'm Paul Schindler.

26:09.000 --> 26:16.000
Hewlett Packard has announced that it is introducing a new 386 computer that uses EISA bus architecture.

26:16.000 --> 26:21.000
The bus will enable 32-bit throughput, but will be compatible with existing AT-type boards.

26:21.000 --> 26:25.000
The new HP machine is set to ship in the second half of 1989.

26:25.000 --> 26:30.000
SAC Technologies has introduced a new English-language DOS interface called DOStalk.

26:30.000 --> 26:36.000
It's a piece of LISP software that lets you type in natural language commands for normal DOS functions.

26:36.000 --> 26:39.000
The interface sells for $89.95.

26:39.000 --> 26:42.000
Chartered Electronics of Singapore has introduced Faxility.

26:42.000 --> 26:49.000
It's a black box which attaches to your computer and lets your fax board receive faxes, even if your PC is turned off.

26:49.000 --> 26:54.000
The box will sell for $145. It's awaiting FCC approval.

26:54.000 --> 26:58.000
Finally, what happens when two computerized machines mate?

26:58.000 --> 27:00.000
You get an ATM machine that sells stamps.

27:00.000 --> 27:03.000
Equibank of Pittsburgh is selling the new machines to banks.

27:03.000 --> 27:05.000
And the nice part is you don't even need money.

27:05.000 --> 27:09.000
The ATM will automatically charge your checking account for the stamps you buy.

27:09.000 --> 27:12.000
That's it for this week's Random Access. I'm Cynthia Steele.

27:12.000 --> 27:19.000
The Computer Chronicles is made possible in part by McGraw-Hill, publishers of Byte magazine,

27:19.000 --> 27:22.000
and VIX, the Byte Information Exchange.

27:22.000 --> 27:27.000
In print and online, Byte and VIX serve computer professionals worldwide

27:27.000 --> 27:32.000
with detailed information on new hardware, software, and technologies.

27:32.000 --> 27:38.000
For a transcript of this week's Computer Chronicles, send $4 to PTV Publications,

27:38.000 --> 27:44.000
Post Office Box 701, Kent, Ohio, 44240.

27:44.000 --> 28:03.000
Please indicate program date.

28:14.000 --> 28:24.000
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